Whose line is it anyway? Closed projects in bouldering

[chris rooney]

Like it or not a first ascent is special, and does mean something. A culmination of finding something, not knowing if its possible or how difficult or easy it might be, and then finding a way to do it is a very enjoyable experience. Everybody likes enjoyable experiences and without someone doing new stuff there would be nothing to do. But it means little in the context of bouldering itself and actually dilutes the singular experience of 'just' climbing that bouldering provides. I'm sure some people would call that 'dilution' 'enrichment' instead...but they are usually trad climbers. Even sport climbers have plenty of added faffing which usually makes them appreciate achieving their goals even more. But bouldering, more than any other climbing 'style', is most concerned with moving over rock at the exclusion of as many external factors as possible.

First ascents are great - but i'd rather do a cool move on rock, new or not.

Regarding this situation - Four years is absolutely ridiculous to be honest. I think most people would respect someone trying a project they discovered for a year, no matter how beyond them it was, but four years with no end in sight?

And talk of 'Glory'? we're fucking adults here, not teenagers, glory my arse. If Dave cant find enough 'glory' now in doing the stand start someday then i wonder why he boulders. I hope you're not going to walk away from this problem now Dave, that would speak volumes...

Basically, the way I look at it is that the problem was pushing Dave to up his game and climb something harder than he'd done before

Paul - it still should? It's Dave's problem alone if it doesnt. I dont think it's normal to want to get better for the 'glory'... its bloody childish!

Plus I don't think that there is suddenly going to dozens of climbers queueing up to do the problem, the interested party is maybe a half dozen people, their lives aren't somehow rendered incomplete because that haven't been able to climb it, and anyway there are many, many great unclimbed problems out there, plenty to go around (some of which I have found on my travels and shared with others).

Couldn't this argument be used against you? has your life been rendered incomplete that someone climbed this one rock when you have done many first ascents and will do more?

I don't think that this whole thing is equivalent to the Germans rushing out at dawn to put their towels on the best deckchairs, I see it more about respecting the efforts of a fellow climber. Imagine someone spend the whole day arranging dominoes, is it right that they get to be the one to knock the first one over?

Lastly I'm not saying that every new problem should be a closed project, far from it, but in certain situations I think its worth considering the idea of giving someone the time to see out something that they started.

respect already got you 4 years...1 is enough

[Pierre Fuentes]

Chris/John,

I'm not going to engage into an argument on the definition of 'glory'.

I assume you perfectly understood that I was referring to self esteem.

If you don't like that word either, how about amour-propre, arrogance, complacence, complacency, conceit, conceitedness, dignity, ego, egotism, pedantry, pride, self-congratulation, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, smugness, vanity...

But now, you're going to tell me that you don't have any of these, right? He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a boulder at me.

Wishing you a good night and the best weather conditions for the weekend ;-)

Pierre

PS: I don't 'burn off people', nor would I enjoy it. I climb mostly outside and alone. That's one of the reasons why I like bouldering and exploring, to be with myself. But hey, you don't know me so how would you know, right?

[Paul Brennan]

It was less of a challenge for John to climb the problem, it was his choice to impose his ethic on the situation.

Hang on, one guy preventing any other person from climbing on a piece of rock indefinitely is having his rights violated?

Requesting, not preventing. And it was a request which was wearing thin. 4 years is a long time. Had you talked to Dave about the problem and the "ban" for want of a better word?

Despite that, climbing is about more than just the rock. Its a community activity, and as such, empathy and respect are important.

Couldn't agree more, cuts both ways though

Very fair

Its an objectively pointless sport anyway, why not give up the notion of the big self and revel in the frivolity?

What's your point here Paul? What are you referring to by "the big self" No clue how this supports Dave's stance - I enjoy the frivolity of climbing as much as the next guy, in fact, I enjoy it so much that when I see a beautiful problem I try and have fun and climb on it! My self worth and identity isn't hinged upon being the first person to climb a small rock sitting on a big rock hurtling through the void

I'm not 100% behind Dave's stance. This was directed at Dave's apparent requirement for the FA to stay motivated to work for the problem. Which, like Chris, I think is misguided. But I like to see people pushing themselves. If I had been in the same position I don't think I would have climbed it because that would set back someone else's motivation. I see how thats prioritising the few over the many, but in that case I think its what I would have done. Its not an opinion that everyone will share.

I hope Dave keeps trying the problem.

[chris rooney]

I completely understand the desire to be the 'best' but i think its silly to just want to be the 'first'.

Chris/John,

I'm not going to engage into an argument on the definition of 'glory'.

I assume you perfectly understood that I was referring to self esteem.

If you don't like that word either, how about amour-propre, arrogance, complacence, complacency, conceit, conceitedness, dignity, ego, egotism, pedantry, pride, self-congratulation, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, smugness, vanity...

But now, you're going to tell me that you don't have any of these, right? He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a boulder at me.

Wishing you a good night and the best weather conditions for the weekend ;-)

Pierre

PS: I don't know what 'burning off people' means but you must since you keep using that word.

[Pierre Fuentes]

I completely understand the desire to be the 'best' but i think its silly to just want to be the 'first'.

To me, being the 'best' requires to be competitive while being the 'first' requires imagination. It's just different motivations.

People who have different opinion than yours are not 'silly', they simply did not have the same teachers as yours - being an 'adult', you should know.

[Dave Flanagan]

If Dave cant find enough 'glory' now in doing the stand start someday then i wonder why he boulders. I hope you're not going to walk away from this problem now Dave, that would speak volumes...

I'm not sure what you are getting at Chris. But if I do walk away from this problem then all it will mean is that, without the lure of a first ascent, I'm no longer as motivated by it.

TheShortSpan: How much esteem do you place in the first ascend of a problem, are you only interested in your first (and subsequent) ascent of the problem?
JohnGill: My approach in the 1950s and 1960s centered on exploration and first ascents. I was never very interested in doing something that had already been done, when there was so much out there to discover – so many untried problems to solve.
From http://threerockbooks.com/index.php/interview-with-john-gill/

the interested party is maybe a half dozen people, their lives aren't somehow rendered incomplete because that haven't been able to climb it

Couldn't this argument be used against you? has your life been rendered incomplete that someone climbed this one rock when you have done many first ascents and will do more?

I don't think it really can. Missing out a FA is a little different then missing out on the chance to repeat a problem.

And no my life hasn't been rendered incomplete.

[Dave Flanagan]

It's a pity that more people haven't offered their opinion on the general issue and no clear consensus has emerged even among the few who have posted.

I'm not really interested in further discussing the specifics of the Glenmalure Wall, now known as The Rebel's Wall by the way, but I can assure John and others who don't have any time for closed projects that information it's inevitable that information isn't going to flow as easily in the future and I think that is a pity. 

[Barry]

Here's my tuppence..

To date, the glenmalure wall has been the only problem in Ireland that I have heard referred to as a closed project.  For the most part, any of the other long standing projects were not closed but hadn't seen the attention of somebody strong enough!

In this instance, i think that publicising the project widely was the issue....  Note the word widely as if kept in small circles, something akin to gentlemen's agreement can be kept.  However, once publicised widely,  it's a bit like look but don't touch....  In most bouldering areas, problems are not revealed until completed.  I realise that this is not necessarily the case for sports projects which involve financial investment to bolt etc and can be red tagged.

I have shown my projects to others before but once I do this, I would not be surprised if they have a go on the project.  I would also not expect them to jump off if they manage to make it through the difficulty.  I know that Chris can empathise with this...

Why has there not been a wider splay of opinion?  In my opinion, it's because it's a bit of a non-issue with this one exception ...

P.S. We need a flame icon!




 

[Dave Flanagan]

Thanks for posting Barry.
Maybe the term is very rarely used, but I think a lot of problems are de facto closed projects. The closure exists as an implicit agreement between friends.

I agree 100% that publicity was the issue. After all you can't climb a problem if you don't know that it exists. But I don't think it's correct to say that I publicised it widely. The most I ever said online was that it was in Glenmalure which considering the length of valley isn't really giving away much. I told a few people about it, as I trusted them, but obviously word slipped out, granted I didn't swear them to silence or anything. I accept that publicising it widely would be rubbing it in people's faces and not very wise, but I really don't think I did that.

I will have to use NDAs from now on or just keep my mouth shut.

As to it being a non-issue you are probably right on that. I can easily imagine how it would seem like a storm in a teacup.

[Kevin Moroney]

I think a FA is a pretty special thing especially if it involves a lot of work to clean/find the problem (Personally I don't have time to go out looking for lines every weekend but the few FA's I have done do stick in the mind more than other problems). That being said I believe that a period of respect can only extend for so long, maybe a season at most. 4 years is way too long. I don't think there is a culture of closed projects in Ireland, this is the first one I have heard of. Quite often we hear of and are shown projects that people are working on, there is never any reference to the project being off limits, most people will show you where the line is and walk you through the moves should you want to try it.

I was out on Rebel Wall today and it is a king line, one of the best in Wicklow, it's a pity that it has been off limits for so long. Problems like this one really get climbers out into areas that don't see that much traffic and get people developing lots of new problems that would otherwise go unclimbed.