Grades - because it's raining and people have broadband

[Kevin_Griffin]

Yeah but you can compare two apples....

[Stephen McMullan]

This has gone all a bit odd if you don't mind me saying so...

I really fail to see whats so hard about grading boulders in Ireland. Or why folks get so precious about it. Why is it different to how problems are graded in Wales, Peak, Lakes, Font etc? What is it different to grading climbs? All the same arguments pro and con exist but somehow we just get on with it and come up with a result. Every argument that you could possibly come up with has its equivalent in trad and sports climbing and yes there are folks who say its all about the line, feck the grade and there are those for whom the number is a personal achievement. Good luck to them all and why not.

I'm reasonably sure I could register on bleau.info, claim an ascent of Karma and offer a grade as a repeater. But I won't....ye need to have a bit more faith in the community. There are far less eejits out there to skew the curve than you might expect.

That apple and oranges argument doesn't wash. There are E4 slabs, overhangs, cracks and corners. No two climbs are alike and the grade is arrived at by exactly the method it should i.e. proferred opinions, comparison, experience, consensus and time.

I don't think anyone is looking for 100% accuracy. Even with routes you hear expression like "easy tick", "soft for the grade" or "value for money". But they are in and around the grade give or take. Most folks can live with the paradox.

I can't see the grade of popular problems changing much. However you could well do with the input for stuff that doesn't get repeated so often. Why discourage it?

We're not talking about democracy here in picking the grade of a problem, thats not what was intended as I understand it but it would be unwise to close the door on feedback from the folks who are able to provide it.

Anyways I'm not sure i'm entitled to an opinion, last time I climbed Chillax, Superswinger etc they were graded 7a 

Just my 2c

 

[Dave Flanagan]

This has gone all a bit odd if you don't mind me saying so...

I really fail to see whats so hard about grading boulders in Ireland. Or why folks get so precious about it. Why is it different to how problems are graded in Wales, Peak, Lakes, Font etc? What is it different to grading climbs? All the same arguments pro and con exist but somehow we just get on with it and come up with a result. Every argument that you could possibly come up with has its equivalent in trad and sports climbing and yes there are folks who say its all about the line, feck the grade and there are those for whom the number is a personal achievement. Good luck to them all and why not.

It's different to grading climbs as there are more divisons in a bouldering grade (trad technical grade say 5a -> 7b is equivelent to Font 4 - 8c, so about 7 steps compared to 15) and as boulder problems are shorter and often only one hard move there is less oppurtunity for the grade to average. Bouldering is much more subjective than trad climbing. More conditions dependant.

I don't think anyone is suggesting not grading. My only point is that grading is quite inaccurate that's all.

Just to be clear, I'm always keen to hear feedback on grades and if anyone wants to post up polls about problems or threads about grades in particular areas they should feel free.

[Stephen McMullan]

Ah I dunno Dave. I have difficulty in distinguishing between very easy routes e.g. VDiff and Severe but there are folks who know exactly the distinction because they climb so many at that grade. Splitting hairs to me, big difference to them. Similarly I've met some top class climbers and I do believe routes at the top end are very subjective and conditions dependent. Perhaps they are approaching bouldering with a rope in terms of difficulty. Even in the middle grades there are routes that are subjective due to unorthodox technique and the phrase "verging on ungradeable" gets mentioned but they still get a grade. At the end of the day its not that different, its still moving over stone in one form or another. I take your point about divisions but the answer to that is more opinions from more climbers as they acquire more experience. It'll hone in on accuracy eventually.

[Dave Flanagan]

I'm not saying that trad routes are easy to grade just that they are easier.

[Dave Ayton]

Dave - love your work. The guide is class and you've effectively created Irish bouldering as it stands today.

From what I've seen elsewhere (like North Wales for example) a guide gets released in various online or printed forms, interest booms, people repeat and explore and then... discussion happens and grades settle through consensus of ascentionists. Now I do agree that the substantial task of recording and pooling all this information together gives you a unique perspective and overview of development and entitles you to offer your opinion on grades and quality to bring some consistency to the mix. But I disagree that all astentionists opinions are not equal - frankly that smacks of "click" culture. The very definition of consensus means that the outlier "freaks" opinions will represent the extreme upper and lower grade limits. The majority of peoples grades will point to the direction of the agreed, mean grade.

I also think that the trendy, knee-jerk quip of branding any and all willing to contribute to this consensus as Grade Whores is holding the whole process up. I think you'll find the Grade Whores here love and live climbing and are motivated by the buzz a stunning line, move or hold can create - not by the numbers. They're immersed in climbing and if they observe inconsistencies in some aspect of it they're going to try to right them - just as you would if you could tweak a sequence on a project. The mind-set of boulderers is to distil systems down to the pure minimum. I don't see any grade discussion as criticism, rather progress. And it will settle but only after a pooling of opinions (from all ascentionists and activists)

[richard]

I hardly boulder at all so maybe what I'm about to say bears no relevance to any grading discussion but I've a particularly dull task to complete at work at the moment and I'm looking for 5 minutes of distraction.

I think grading matters less in bouldering. Not saying it doesn't matter, but it seems to me that trad climbing has a lot more going on (gear, exposure, seriousness, sustainedness [is that even a word?..]) so it's more important to know a grade before setting off up a line. With bouldering (for me at least), the pleasure is almost 100% in the movement (movement is hugely important in the enjoyment of routes too but often there's more going on so it doesn't get all the attention). This means I either like a boulder problem or I don't and if I want to do it enough and I'll keep trying it if I see that it's possible. If I was stood under an E5 5c it would matter more that I know the grade than if I was sat under a 7B.

All that said, grades do exist and do give a bit of structure to guidebooks and ideas of fitness so it's a bit irrelevant me waffling on...

[Stephen McMullan]

Folks seem to have got caught on trad grades. I was also referring to sports routes. Just as many grading divisions to choose from etc.

[chris rooney]

i am truly baffled that people think trad grades are less subjective than bouldering grades, far more variables involved despite the larger increments of the technical grade

[Barry]

As am I chris.. According to some - that video of Ireland's hardest problems, purely subjective, if the ascentist was a bit shorter, they'd be easy! Probably only as hard as chillax.. And those bleausards, gade whores them all... Get some sense or more the case, some perspective..

[trish fox]

Dave with regards the 'Chin Up' poll above... are those chin ups off a pull up bar or a door frame and how many fingers and arms are allowed?

[Stephen McMullan]

Can Diarmuid do them? 

[Barry]

Trish, once the results of the poll are in and you get an insight into the pull up technique employed, you should convert your ticklist, the graded one on your blog, to Pullups, should be able to crack em all off fairly quickly then .... Easy as that..

[Kevin_Griffin]

Are they done strict or are you allowed to cheat by flicking at the bottom ?

[divil]

Hi all, very much enjoying the debate and learning quite a bit about peoples bouldering perceptions, etc. . . . which is always useful. I'm unsure as to whether the following is a questions or a comment on my behalf, but I'd appreciate peoples opinions: I have always percieved bouldering grades as being "flash grades" i.e. that is the grade of the problem the first time you walk up and sit in front of it, without tick marks, beta, etc etc. . . . For example, I spent many evenings last summer out to the Scalp working Dark Angle SS; everytime I didn't get it it seemed hard and probably worth its 7a (maybe 6c+?), it's technical, with a burly first move  . . . . . however, by the time I got it (and all the times since), it doesn't feel like a 7a (in my head), but I won't easily forget those evenings on my ass in front of it - I feel very similarly about Chillax, Gullys Problem, etc etc i.e. before I got them, they definitely felt thier grade but after they didn't anymore. . . . . . is this why certain climbs are being downgraded. . . . people are getting stronger, etc. . . . . personally I think DA SS at 6b+ does it a dis-service, but really I don't want to focus on one problem, just using it as an example.

Cheers
P