Grades - because it's raining and people have broadband

[stephen_mc_gowan]

Think that'd be the northside coop consensus...

I reckon it's a 7b/+ route....I think it's a hard one to grade as a boulder problem.

[Barry]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure I had some kind of argument/discussion with some members of the northside mafiosa about this.

Chris, probably better to start talking benchmark problems and grades and go from there, you and I have discussed such a list before as far as I remember.

[chris rooney]

well now there's a decent forum lets make that list!

[trish fox]

Pretty funny to me that heads are saying that Loco is 7a,7b,7b+ when I've heard some of the same heads claiming Rhythm and Stealth is 6c...

Grades are what they are... opinions.

A wise boulderer once said:

There are two grades: I can, and I can't

These days I think that man is right.

[Dave Ayton]

Selective sandbagging innit Trish - I know I'm guilty but i'm trying to change 

We're going to have to be able to grade long or traverse problems - loco isn't that big, doesn't deserve a route grade. Comparable to left wall trav in Parasella's?

I think Away from the numbers is 7A+ chris and a good Irish benchmark at the grade - Andy's arete is a bit too techy/flufable to be benchmarking other problems

Whats a benchmark problem then?

6A : St. Kevins slab?
6B : Dark Angle?
6C : Chillax?
7A : ?
7A+ : ?
7B : ? Reckoner ?
7B+ : ?
7C : Egg Trav?
7C+ : Leftism?
8A : Leviathan?

[Barry]

Trish - lots of people talk about grades, including you, and grades are used all over the world.  I do know that somebody like Ayton with his long arms and joho with his not-so-tall stature are going to find things slightly different but with a number of ascents, the level of difficulty should/might become clearer.  So it is not whether grades are subjective/objective, there is a clearly a degree of subjectivity, it's about trying to be objective.  If you want to not use this system, that's fine and don't use it, stick to climb/can't climb or doable/doable with effort/will never do.  These are actually grading systems too, albeit personal and relative.

In my opinion, a benchmark problem is a well travelled problem where a number of people can give their 'opinion' on the difficulty.  For problems with one or two ascents, the ascentionist sets the grade but it can hardly be considered as benchmark.  I agree with most of yours Dave apart from one or two.  Notably, all of these are pretty close to the grades suggested by the guide.

Dark Angle Sit - 6c/6c+ (it's a big pull from the ground?)
Quality Control - 6c
Jiggery Pokery - 6c
Blind stick - 6c+
Rythem and Stealth - 7a
Fuck all left - 7a
Andy's arete - 7a +
Loco - 7a+
Pascals - 7b   
The funk - 7b+
Sow your wild oats - 7b+

[chris rooney]

spot on Baz, if you think grades are stupid then stop reading and/or adding to this thread.

i would add

Living the Dream 6B+

Chillax Left  6C+
Sow Your wild Oats 7B+

I think Pascals is at the hard end of 7B so not appropriate for benchmark?

Lemon Sole for 7C?

[Patrick Stewart]

Well, Dark Angle SS is obviously not going to settle into that list as a benchmark - suggestions currently span 5 grades. I'd suggest Barry has it about right though. Definitely harder than 6B+ imo.
I think the stand was undergraded in the guide too.

[trish fox]

Barry, I agree with you - I think there's something slightly and maybe accidentally profound about the 'two grade system' of can/can't suggested to me:

It's totally personal, and looks directly at one's own intrinsic motivation to complete the problem at hand. It disregards the idea that 'this line is easy because it's a 5+ so I should be able to do it/flash it... and if I'm not able, I'm gonna throw a strop'.

It takes away one's competitive nature - He/She can only climb 6b so I should be able to get this first...

At the end of a day out bouldering one might say to oneself: I could climb that one, but I couldn't climb the other... instead of... I didn't get that stupid 5+ but I did that 7a, so who cares about the 5... and so on...

It allows one to find an easy problem hard or a hard problem easy...

Just a thought - that's all

I've spoken at length about grades in the past trying to get to the bottom of it all for my own motivation. The more I looked, the more I realised there is no definitive answer. That's when I came to the conclusion that grades are after-all opinions, and I don't invest as much time worrying about them any more. I don't think they're stupid and never said that or even eluded to it.

It's undeniably satisfying when I climb something that everyone agrees was hard and 'of the grade' it was given.

But more often than not these days - it's about good quality climbing for me - that might change next month, who knows.

Blind stick is a lovely problem, brilliant quality climbing - I've always thought it went at about 6b+,  think it's about as hard as Duffy's Slap (6b+) on Big Jim but with a dodgy landing...  but it came very simply to me once I found the beta, others disagree...

And so the debate continues...

[Barry]

Absolutely. 

I would say Blindstick is about 6c, although I find it an awful bastard to do, so we actually grade quite similarly.  A collection of opinions forms a concensus.

[Barry]

Eat it - 6c
Duffy slap - 6b+
Boneyard sit - 7a
Rainbow - 6c+
Away from numbers - 7a (found harder than rainbow)
The fin - 7a+
Edge of onion - 6c

[Kevin_Griffin]

Why give "mother" a tongue in cheek grade if you are looking for consensus/consistency?

[james gernon]

Good old grades I think this one will go on forever especially as people leave the color coded confines of the wall and head up to the hills and get there arses handed to them on smear test , andys arete and many others. I have always found grades hard to get my head around on any given day Im either crap or going well . I think grades are deffinitly stiff here on our little island but as chris says its a good way to keep the ego in check but it can be frustrating to continually fail on the same move again and again on problems that are well with in your grade .
Modern Bouldering in Ireland is about 14 years old and it developed quite independently of out side influences so the grades tend to be on the stiff side  due to two main factors .
 1 Irish people dont like to toot their own horn and are stronger than they think  hence the lower grades of problems theres a lot of 6cs out there .
 2 the bouldering in Ireland  is generaly very technical  especialy in wicklow and takes time to work out so a problem that seems desperate at first will over time as the sequence is worked out become easier when completed , a classic example of this is the groove at the brimstones in co fermanagha ( which I havent done but am close ) it seems desperate at first but as you work it out it becomes possible .  Also as people have said already some problems suit people more then others which leads to confussion and frustration with grades .
The grades have settled over the years and are fairly accurete and some times frustrating on the long established and well repeated problems .
As for bench mark problems what is Irelands marie rose

[ciaran]

Grades are important, they let you know how you're getting along and serve as markers for improvement, they represent a great challenge as you strive to become a more efficient and stronger climber, it doesn't make you a 'grade whore' because you want to achieve the next level of proficiency, on the contrary, it means you are a passionate ambitious boulderer. After all the hard work, learning and training, it's O.K to every once in a while be proud, give yourself a pat on the back and think ''I'm a bad ass 7A climbing motha fuckah !!''

It's not that hard to come to a concensus, people should know their own size and their own strengths and weaknesses, they should be able to realise when a problem would be slightly harder for someone with a smaller reach or less campus power etc.

I have only bouldered to 6c+ in Ireland here are my proposed benchmarks ...

Technical Benchmarks                                                 Power Benchmarks

5 Original route                                                           5 Rising Traverse on Big Jim steep side
5+ Smear test                                                             5+
6a Arete on the fin                                                      6a Big Foot
6a+ St. Kevin's Slab                                                    6a+ Squamish
6b The Plum                                                                6b White Arrow
6b+ Arete Right Of The Fin                                          6b+ Duffy's Slap                                       
                                                                                   6c Chillax
                                                                                    6c+ Barry's Problem

I know climbers who would cruise the technical list but flail hard on the power list, they should realise that they are weak and that some training would get them up to speed on power problems, vice versa I know beasts with shit technique who do well on the power list, but make a holy show of themselves at the technical stuff, they should know their weakness and adjust their internal 'gradometer' before giving their opinion on the grade.

When it comes to morpho / reachy problems they should be graded by how they feel for people of average size and indicated as morpho in the given guide, this way a tall person can assume the problem may be an easy tick for them,  small people and youngsters can expect a bit of a fight / impossibilty.

... and remember folks ''tall people reach things, small people climb things''



                                                         

[Paul Brennan]

From my experience as an idiot abroad for the last 2 months, Irish grades do feel stiff compared to things I've done here.  I do think its harder to grade Irish-type problems accurately. Mostly due the technical nature of the climbing at home, like Jim mentioned. I hadn't realised how big a factor this is until I went bouldering in North America. If you can crimp hard and campus you can probably climb about V10 in Bishop and about 6a in Glendo.

Sandbagging at home does have its plus sides however, as everything over here feels very easy for the grade. Which I have been enjoying immensely.

Regardless of grades, I think the more important issue is to settle on a suitably 'gangsta' moniker for a certain diminutive beast with the initials JH. So far I've seen JHard and JoHo. Unfortunately, JStar is already taken. J-Hiddy? A consensus is needed.