Grades - because it's raining and people have broadband

[Dave Ayton]

http://daveaytonsblog.blogspot.com/2012/04/grades-in-ireland.html

I was asked for my opinion on the grade of a Dyno in Glendasan, that lead to another question on the comparability of Irish and Font grades - the comment thread that followed was way better than the original post.

I'm not anti-grades, nor am I solely motivated by them (grade whore etc..) - I'm just a climber making an observation that there is still some settling to be done for the system in use to be able to compare the difficulty of similar problems between different areas.

Here seemed like the right place for the thread to continue....

 

[chris rooney]

was going to suggest you move that discussion here Dave, far more appropriate location

in the high 6 to 7 grade range I would say grades are not as accurate here as in Font - we dont really have enough developed problems that have been repeated to reach a valid consensus. but it is getting better.
there are more boulderers about, climbing harder than before thanks to the co-ops and more importantly lots of people seem to be going to Font - i think this is essential for a re-calibration of one's inner grade angel/devil. several times i've had nagging doubts that something i've done has been over-graded only to go to font and realise i was wrong.

It feels like our scene exists in a little bubble sometimes and most people I climb with err on the side of caution regarding grades which is great for keeping the ego in check but some could do with admitting that not all problems are easy, they are just fucking good climbers.

[Kevin_Griffin]

Font does'nt offer perfect consistency either, these things are subjective, some 6's are harder than the 7's and I'm not just talking about the techie ones  either. How can you calibrate a line of holds on a piece of rock??? 7's in Wicklow usually boil done to 1 or 2 hard moves with the rest being okay. This may be a generalization/opinion but I find Font/Swiss to be less reliant on one hard move and more about several hardish moves in a row......

[brendan]

I go with Kevs point about consistency in font. I think within the different areas there you can find variance with the suspicion being that the less popular areas are a touch softer. I am sure similar debates go on between the locals there. If you get enough climbers together anywhere with time on their hands, they will eventually talk grades.
But there are a few other things too maybe: by the nature of it when we go to font we tend towards the classics and i think they will tend to be tougher/fairer/more honest for their grade (any thoughts?).

And then Chris's point too that there is the fact that some climbers suit certain problems and if we do well on a problem instead of patting ourselves on the back we might call it soft for it's grade. which incidently is hard on those who had to work their arses off to get that same problem.
Ok, if enough people query a grade then maybe there is something to it but just cos you flashed it doen't mean it's soft.
I guess consitency and agreement with grades will forever remain illusive but they are a handy tool to keep you motivated, stop you killing yourself and measure progress.

I haven't really done enough in ireland or elswhere to contribute but i would be interested in knowing what problems (if any) people think are graded hard/soft? if nothing else it might start a good arguement for me to read 

[chris rooney]

i disagree that font is inconsistent especially in the 7s, certainly around the 5s and low 6s but barring a few anomalies its usually spot on

[Barry]

Yes, grades are subjective, this is obvious, but when grading we can try and be as objective as possible.  For example, in Glendalough, and with a few exceptions and morphos, grades are settling down across a relative scale, these are generally based upon benchmark problem/grades.  More traffic has promoted this and at the moment, many areas in Ireland do not have enough traffic to promote a consensus on the benchmark problems/grades but this will change over time.   

[chris rooney]

yeah i was thinking about Brendans request for example problems that are over/undergraded but couldnt really come up with any in glendo, the grades are mostly on the money there at this stage.

[Dave Ayton]

I think there is an over emphasis on Font going on here too – bouldering exists worldwide. Although the font grade originated there it’s used in conjunction with the V-grades to describe problems everywhere. I think a larger variety of locations adds to a well-balanced overview of grades regardless of move number, style, rock type etc… I agree with Chris – I think the Font 7’s are on the money. Sure, if I try a font 7 that’s perfectly my style it’ll seem way easier to one that plays to my weaknesses but from experience I can say that they’re both the same level of difficulty, I was just more suited to one.

Yesterday I went to Lough Bray. One pad no spotters Choc Ice 6C+… really? Felt easy. Eyrie in Scalp 6C… no way! Dark angle sit 7a?!?! Kinky Reggae felt hard for 6C but I only tried it once and again only the one pad etc… Especially when compared to likes of Chillax, So it goes, LDF or some of the lines in the coolies. Loco in the Cave is being knocked down to 6C? Really? I mean it’s a gift to work as you can pull on anywhere but to climb it you’re on your arms (in some cases knees) for 6m? I mean 6C’s are a fairly easy enough grade to get your head around – translates into V5 and there are plenty of do-able classics of that grade at any venue. If a problem requires more to send than your average 6C I think we may have to consider the possibility that it’s a 7 and take the implied progress on the chin.

[Patrick Stewart]

Dave's post baffles me. I'm really missing something on Chillax. I found (the moves I can do) much harder than Kinky Reggae stand start.

I have no idea about proper grades. Since about November I just see everything in complex Gravity colour grades.

i.e mid-range or softish of the yellows before the last yellows, maybe a top end red these days.

[Barry]

Yes, You would appear to be missing something on Chillax...

[Patrick Stewart]

I'm doomed.

[chris rooney]

well first things first Dave, V5 is 6C+, V4 is 6C i hope you're not one of these people that thinks + grades are an increment, they are whole grade people. amazing how many people think that.

choc ice - tried it years ago on the day MD did it, felt hard enough, and high...did you stay left of the arete? 

kinky reggae stand - feels bench mark for 6C to me? as does chillax

dark angle ss is most definitely a mistake at 7A, not sure why thats in the guide as that, more like 6B+?

Loco Total is at least 7A in my opinion, who's claiming 6C??

Havent seen Eyrie but its a JHard route so probably add 2 grades

[Dave Ayton]

I agree with the + grades Chris - don't worry

Haa! Of course I stayed left of Arete on Choc Ice - but i like highballs and the crux is a bit reachy (plus it was prime conditions yesterday just before a hail storm!)

Like i said, only been on Kinky Reggae once and with no beta or spotters was hard to string it together

Chillax is perfect benchmark 6C - agreed

The problem i did in Ravens Glen "Mother" was given a tounge in cheek 6a but it's harder than Choc Ice and Cashbah and in a similar style so probably around the 6C+?

I've not managed to finish Eyrie yet but feels harder than Rythm and Stealth to me. I'd think 7A+/B but will wait till it's done

Agree on Dark Angle sit - takes some figuring out but climbs easy once dialed
Thought the Co-op consensus of Loco was 6C - must be wrong

[Barry]

Think that'd be the northside coop consensus...

[chris rooney]

choc ice was years ago, so would need a refresher to see for sure. cant see myself back there anytime soon though

what do people think of 'away from the numbers' while we're talking about lough bray? hard 7A or soft 7A+? i'd go for the latter. Rainbow.. solid 7A?

i know this is now turning into a very specific grade discussion but i think that's a healthy thing to have once in a while.