My Community

Particularly given the differing levels of ability (John's being above most of the rest of us), and Dave's current layoff through injury

It was less of a challenge for John to climb the problem, it was his choice to impose his ethic on the situation.

Despite that, climbing is about more than just the rock. Its a community activity, and as such, empathy and respect are important.

Its an objectively pointless sport anyway, why not give up the notion of the big self and revel in the frivolity?

Sunday
John Howard
07/06/2015 23:41
Hiya Dave,
I've been down in Glenmalure a fair bit recently and that steep wall up high has been eating away at me, completely out of character for Wicklow and an incredibly aesthetic problem on perfect rock, really not much out there like it - I couldn't shake the thought that it's a shame that other people can't enjoy it too, something just didn't sit right with me - having stumbled upon it myself but then stopping myself or others from trying it as I knew you wanted to do if first.
I can get my head around people sitting on a project for a season or two if that's their desire but is there not a point after years and years when the balance shifts towards maybe letting other people have fun on these things rather than inhibiting the community by red tagging the most inspiring lines? I've been wrestling with it in my head and had been asking people what they thought to try and get a more objective perspective.
So today I was down there and decided to just get on it and climb it, it felt somewhere around 7B - and a completely compelling line that climbs so well - I imagine it'll be a complete classic once people get on it, why keep these things to ourselves? The notion of doing it first/naming/'stealing'/ego shit etc wasn't my drive whatsoever, just the quality of the climb - for all I know someone else could well have done it already, and to be honest I'd prefer it that way rather than having to constantly question myself and top out a problem with such a strange aftertaste.
I can appreciate that it might seem like a complete dick move but really, I think on balance, that to most people your stance would seem like the one that's more out of keeping with where the consensus is on this. I'm sorry if you find this hurtful, but does my having climbed a bit of rock inherently change your future experience on it? I'm happy to be proven to be way out of line here and in conflict with accepted norms in climbing on this but as far as I can reason, I think it makes more sense for others to get out and enjoy these things within reason - life's too short, why can't we all enjoy these gems? The model of localism and protectionism in surfing isn't a culture worth emulating in my opinion.
Being first isn't my primary motivation with these things, and absolutely not in this case, I was half dreading topping out as I really have no interest in rubbing you up the wrong way. I sincerely appreciate the exploring and sharing you do and that you've personally invested a lot in this boulder - whatever name have in mind for it and any publicizing you do/don't want to do - absolutely go ahead, I have zero desire for my hobby to be a vehiclefor ego inflation or undermining other people, simply wanted to enjoy a superb bit of climbing. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from here.
Anyway, apologies for the ramble, just thought I'd let you know now rather than down the line, and to try and make my motives clear. looking forward to seeing you outside when your arm has healed,
All the best,
John

David Flanagan
08/06/2015 00:24
Very disappointed to hear that John.

Monday
David Flanagan
08/06/2015 09:37
Hi John. Have had a bit of time to mull this over. Firstly thanks for letting me know, I appreciate that, I wouldn't like to have not know about it. Secondly let me say that I think you are a good guy. I found the problem in the summer of 2011 so nearly four years ago and I know that is a long time, I have been concious of that and wasn't planning on sitting on it for ever, I hadn't come up with a deadline though. I wish you had got in touch with me before hand and said you weren't happy with the situation, I could of filled you in with my point of view, I probably would of asked for some time to get back climbing and do a little more training and give it a few last shots. I last tried it two weeks before I broke my elbow and have been working on a training plan specifically for the purpose of getting it done for the last 3 months. So it's not like I haven't been on it for a long time.

David Flanagan
08/06/2015 09:47
A few years ago I met some of the lads Chris and Kev anyway at the Kinky Regae boulder and told them about it (I had already told Duffy and a few others about it), I didn't specifically ask them not to climb it but probably implied that I would like that, and I trusted that they would get respect that. I regretted this a little later as there was some comments about time passing, not sure how much this was banter. I also felt that if I hadn't told anyone about it that it was unlikely that anyone would stumble on it. I think I posted up one or two photos and a video, maybe not the best idea but again I trusted people. I put the 45 degree wall in the guide, which again probably wasn't a good idea if I wanted to keep the project to myself as they are pretty close together. Now I'm not sure how you came across the boulder, whether you saw the stuff I had posted about it, were checking out the 45 and went for a wander, heard others talk about it, or found it 100% under your own steam I don't know.

Tuesday
John Howard
09/06/2015 23:50
I suppose maybe what this comes down to is a difference of opinion on the value of first ascents and the concept of 'ownership/possession' (for want of a better word) of rock climbs.
For me, I haven't come across a persuasive argument that valuing first ascents to the extent that climbs become red-tagged or out of bounds to others, is in any way appropriate or justified. To me, the idea of 'owning' a piece of rock before or after climbing it, is tenuous at best when looked at from an objective perspective. Any arguments in support of it essentially boil down to a person valuing their persona as 'first ascensionist' to a degree that the potential participation of the wider community is eclipsed by the desire of the self, or the debate simply reverts to 'well it's just a tradition in climbing'.
At the core of this is my inability to continue to support the concept of climbs becoming personal possessions. If I at all considered that this particular piece of rock somehow belonged to you, then of course I would consider climbing it before you, its rightful owner, as a disrespectful act, and would be ashamed of my actions - but the truth is that I simply don't think the argument for ownership/red tagging holds any water. (Yes, I understand that we as a community name and give estimated grades of climbs for categorisation purposes, that's the extent of it for me)
August 2010 - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_c3VFx-OHNEg/TGvRKdj-fPI/AAAAAAAAAow/fyUhl6nAM58/s1600/Copy+of+IMG_4220.JPG
"We also spotted some mysterious boulderers. Well we assumed they were boulderers as they seemed to be hanging around some steep rocks high up the hillside, was it you?"
I wonder if these two lads will be furious when they find out that the two of us have been climbing on 'their' problem over the past 5 years? - I'm being facetious here but that's honestly where this argument leads, there can be no 'first' owner of an ancient lump of granite through 'conquering' it first. So for me it's quite black and white, either we see this common asset as being for everyone, or we as a community say that it's ok to prohibit public involvement in these 'red-tagging' cases, as the (self appointed) 'finder/explorer/equipper' has ownership rights over the climb.
Just because the latter stance is traditional in climbing, or is advocated by certain wads and personalities does not make it justified or above criticism. I see the consensus shifting towards the former viewpoint in coming years, you only have to look our collective, quiet discomfort at the Chris Sharma Red tagging story of a few years ago, or even this recent blog of Ricky's - "Don't make Gentleman's agreements with people - obviously we shouldn't be overly attached to being the first person to climb up something; what's the rush..? but that's always been a part of rock climbing and in the case of this arete, I didn't feel bad about asking Dan for the time... That part felt nice. His ettiequte really,  "the dothing of ones cap" as Dan put it, to someone in a similar situation with similar drive and affections." I agree with his first statement but can't make the jump to the second, some traditions are worth discarding if they don't stand up to reason.
But again, even if the tradition lingers, and I'm in a complete minority, I'm still comfortable with my reasoning until I'm given a convincing argument other than 'it's just how it is in climbing - it's tradition' or 'it's my rock, I saw it first, the rest of you can climb it when I'm finished with it'
The reason I didn't message you saying I was unhappy with the situation is because I clarified my position to myself and realised that you have no greater say or right than I or anyone else, so why would I feel the need to request your permission? Only to be then told at length of the efforts you've gone to to try and climb this rock as a way of supporting the misguided idea that it has somehow become yours? - my actions in no way undermine your relationship to this problem, that can only be the case if your sole motivation to climb this stunning line is to claim some ownership of it over others, which is frankly a shame. Is it not a hollow victory (if you do prize first ascents), to claim your trophy of a first ascent only by denying others the chance to try?
If you feel that this concept of being first is worth pursuing at the expense of the community at large then I think you've assumed an antiquated, regressive convention and should examine it, or put forward your perspective so that we can debate it. This is definitely a debate worth having but probably even better in person.
In answer to your question as to how I came across it, was a mix of exploring Glenmalure at the moment, knowing there's other cool shit to be done ('your' proj included - had seen your stuff online and heard about it), it's quite a prominent cluster from Intergalactic so wasn't long til I stumbled upon it.
Before signing off I'd like to say that my tone here isn't intended to be combative in case it reads that way, simply hard to convey tone in these messages.
Cheers,
John

Wednesday
David Flanagan
10/06/2015 09:07
Hi John Thanks for the considered reply. Would you have any objection if I posted up about this whole thing on the short span forum, I would be keen to see what other people's thoughts are on open/closed projects?
I will also reply to you points above.

John Howard
10/06/2015 09:34
Yeah I have no issue with it being discussed openly, like you I'd be curious to know where other people stand. I suspect it'll descend into a flame war - seems to be the way with online debate but absolutely - fire away, no harm in trying.

David Flanagan
10/06/2015 10:10
It might do but worth a try I think.

Wednesday
David Flanagan
10/06/2015 16:57
Sorry John but reading through your messages again I'm a still a little unclear on your reasoning. You say "I can get my head around people sitting on a project for a season or two if that's their desire" yet "the truth is that I simply don't think the argument for ownership/red tagging holds any water". So it that my redtagging went on too long or is it that you just don't believe in closed projects in any way shape or form?

David Flanagan
10/06/2015 16:57
"We also spotted some mysterious boulderers. Well we assumed they were boulderers as they seemed to be hanging around some steep rocks high up the hillside, was it you?"
On reflection I think these guys where geocachers, there is a geocach at the entrance to the cave just right of the problem.

John Howard
10/06/2015 17:42
I don't believe in red-tagging in any way, shape or form Dave. what I should have written instead of -
"I can get my head around people sitting on a project for a season or two if that's their desire"
is that I've been able to tolerate it previously because although I didn't support the concept at all, I didn't view the ensuing hassle as being worth it. The difference is that now I see the value in directly confronting the issue, as I think the benefits of an open community and a potential shift in our collective approach, and how we view and value first ascents.
I now have no problem discussing it or ruffling feathers as I see it as being a wholly negative practice and one which is a net loss to climbing.
http://boulderingireland.blogspot.ie/2012/01/projects-open-or-closed.html
"The advantage of closed projects is that
It reduces the need for secrecy, people will share information more freely if they aren't worrried someone will go along and do their project.
It encourages people to get out and look for new problems of their own."
Your argument above in support of the practice is predicated on the false notion of potential ownership; that, for me, is the central thread of this that all the nitty gritty details spin out from. There is no need for secrecy, no loss in sharing if the thing can never be ownder in the first place, that's where I stand on it.
What's your take? I feel I've defended my position but I'm still in the dark on what you actually believe?
have to run

David Flanagan
10/06/2015 17:48
I have been writing a long forum post, I will post it shortly. Please post up your thoughts, I took would welcome a discussion, see what people's thoughts are, maybe gauge a consensus.  To be honest it seems like we disagree on the fundamental issue of whether a FA means anything. Correct me if I'm wrong though, you don't have an intention of following the consensus if you don't agree with it?7

David Flanagan
10/06/2015 17:50
With the whole FA thing I get that you just don't believe that's, but you have to understand that other people do, and this motivates their actions for example keeping problems secret.

Thursday
David Flanagan
11/06/2015 10:14
http://www.theshortspan.com/smf/index.php?topic=112.0
Whose line is it anyway? Closed projects in bouldering
theshortspan.com